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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:49 pm 
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So we do have an Alpha receiver in Hartline (when he said Alpha I took it to mean #1, #2, #3).

Let's look at the 5 top scoring teams:

Patriots - Welker. LLoyd and Gronk are the top three receivers. Is Wes Walker a #1 - Alpha? He's not running by too many people. He's more of a possession guy. Couldn't be Gronk he's a TE.

Cards - supports with Fitz.

Atlanta - Roddy White, Tony Gonzolez and Julio Jones. I wouldn't call Roddy White an Alpha.

Washinton - Fred Davis, Leonard Hankerson, Josh Morris - Fred is an RB and who and who?

Baltimore - Ray Rice, Boldin (no TD's), Pitta

So 1 out of 5.


Last edited by Finatik on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Quote:
When Hartline is 'neutralized', we don't have another receiver that can pick up the slack. Bess is great at what he does, but he's not the type of player that can take over a game.


The top 5 scoring teams in looking at the top 2 its actually the TE that may mean more to this team then a lack of another WR that can take over the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Finfan33 wrote:
That is what he says but it is easy to say that when you have one of if not THE GREATEST WR to ever play the game on your offense.
.


Walsh actually created this Offense when he was with the Bengals.. He later became the head coach with the 49's and brought the offense with him. He then drafted Montana and Rice

he first created the offense to help his weak armed QB at Cinn. (can't remember his name)

I beleve the true roots are form the Syd Gillium (sp) Offense and it expanded from there.

bernie Kosar actually phrased the "west Coast Offense" when he was giving an interview and it has stuck ever since


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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:22 pm 
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t47c wrote:
Finfan33 wrote:
That is what he says but it is easy to say that when you have one of if not THE GREATEST WR to ever play the game on your offense.
.


Walsh actually created this Offense when he was with the Bengals.. He later became the head coach with the 49's and brought the offense with him. He then drafted Montana and Rice

he first created the offense to help his weak armed QB at Cinn. (can't remember his name)

I beleve the true roots are form the Syd Gillium (sp) Offense and it expanded from there.

bernie Kosar actually phrased the "west Coast Offense" when he was giving an interview and it has stuck ever since


I agree that he started it in Cincy but it wasn't popular until San Fran.

He also wasn't the creator of it as you said but was the one who kept tweaking it and drafted players to really make it run flawlessly.

The San Fran days is when it took off and other coaches started trying it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Quote:
Patriots - Welker. LLoyd and Gronk are the top three receivers. Is Wes Walker a #1 - Alpha? He's not running by too many people. He's more of a possession guy. Couldn't be Gronk he's a TE.


The Pats run a very different offense, where the two TEs and slot receiver are the focal points. But Lloyd has been a # 1 receiver in the past and has started playing lke one in NE the past two weeks. You might say they have 4 "alpha" receivers.

Quote:
Atlanta - Roddy White, Tony Gonzolez and Julio Jones. I wouldn't call Roddy White an Alpha.


You wouldn't??? Roddy White is one of the top receivers in the NFL and is as legit a #1 as there is.

Quote:
Washinton - Fred Davis, Leonard Hankerson, Josh Morris - Fred is an RB and who and who?


The Skins don't have a legit #1. A healthy Garcon comes close, but he can't help when he's hurt.

Quote:
Baltimore - Ray Rice, Boldin (no TD's), Pitta


You're forgetting Torrey Smith, who is fast becoming a legit #1.

Quote:
So 1 out of 5.


I'd say it's closer to 4 out of 5.

But either way, I also think that it's more worthwhile to look at recent SB winners...all had legit #1/alpha WRs.


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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:31 pm 
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the number one is a role not a person. Wes Welker a number one receiver?
When you say double, you mean role the safety in his direction?
The number one receiver is the guy who gets the most balls thrown his way.

You think if Hartline is doubled there not gonna worry about Bess in single coverage? I guess that would depend on route running, qb accuracy, play calling.

So what makes said alpha, alpha? that hes 6'4 and runs a 4.4?

Everybody wants a playmaker that can run past the defense, make the man miss and catch the elevator throw. But if Hartline and Bess arent NUMBER ONES, than howd they succeed, without a number one to take the pressure off?

How much does Megatron not being in the game change the outcome? Some, definetly, but enormous, gotta have one to succeed? Nah, Burleson would catch his balls(LOL) and do a few things that Calvin wouldnt.
Im not deminishing the need for great players, just think its a bit overblown through shall we say polarization. Start putting Hartline on Cadillac commercials and suddenly hes alpha one bad ass

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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:34 pm 
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First: Define alpha.

Welker lead the league in receptions yards last year (122) and Roddy White was second (100). They were #2 and #8 in yards (1569 and 1296). 6th and 11th in TDs.

That's "alpha production" if I've ever seen it.

Defenses *should* be keying in on them. Those two guys however do benefit from being on teams with a bunch of weapons (although it should be noted both produced without stellar QBs or other weapons at earlier points in their careers).


Second: where did you get your list of 5 highest scoring teams. It's actually:

NE: plays a spread offense. Welker, Lloyd, Gronk, Edelman, etc - too many weapons to cover. I will point out, when the offense was unstoppable: Randy Moss
Houston: Andre Johnson anyone?
ATL: one could argue White AND Jones are both true #1 WRs.
Washington: #1 rush offense, #16 pass defense. 8 rushing TDs, 4 passing, 1 INT, 2 Fumbles. Not exactly a passing powerhouse...
Ravens: Ray Rice is the beast that makes that offense go, but Anquan Boldin is a legit #1 WR.

Third: as we know (Brandon Marshall anyone?) an "alpha receiver" by itself doesn't make your offense, anymore than a dominant RB makes your offense. A great QB is the lone position that makes the biggest difference. IF you have a great QB, well, the rest is icing on the cake. An "alpha receiver" absolutely helps the offense, and a dominant RB likewise helps.

Once Miami's "WCO" starts clicking, perhaps we'll find a gem to be the next "Jerry Rice" in it. I know Miami needs *more* weapons to make it work, that Bess + Hartline + Bush/Miller isn't enough to be really successful. We need a pass catching TE and another receiver.

Unfortunately Egnew doesn't look like he has the "Eye of the Tiger". I'm not expecting much, unless the coaches can get through to him. Maybe Clay can be the guy. I was hoping for more. Fasano just isn't athletic enough.

As for the other receiver, well, I'm hopeful it gets addressed somehow this offseason. It was disappointing that Miami didn't get an upgrade this past offseason given ALL the talent that was available in FA and the draft this year. My guess is Philbin didn't want a great receiver dominating Tannehill - he wants Tannehill to get control of the team and to learn to spread the ball around, rather than keep going to his security blanket aka "alpha receiver".


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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:35 pm 
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:clap: :clap: :clap:

FANTASTIC POST FFM.

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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Quote:
the number one is a role not a person.


Depends on the team. Every team has a #1 receiver by necessity, but there's a big difference between #1 Pierre Garcon and #1 Megatron.

Quote:
Wes Welker a number one receiver?


Absolutely, though that has changed somewhat as the Pats have shifted to a 2-TE focus. But he's certainly not a #3, as most slots are.

Quote:
When you say double, you mean role the safety in his direction?


Depends on the defensive scheme, down and distance, etc. But in general "doubled" means covered by two defenders. Sometimes it's two corners, sometimes a corner and a safety, sometimes a safety and a LB...all depends on the situation.

Quote:
The number one receiver is the guy who gets the most balls thrown his way.


Sure, on a general level. But again - Danny Amendola ain't Dwayne Bowe no matter how many passes he gets.

Quote:
You think if Hartline is doubled there not gonna worry about Bess in single coverage? I guess that would depend on route running, qb accuracy, play calling.


All depends on the situation.

Quote:
So what makes said alpha, alpha? that hes 6'4 and runs a 4.4?


Size has nothing to do with it. Greg Jennings and Megatron are both alphas...but have completely different body types. A true #1 is a combination of traits - ability to get open, play physically, score TDs, dominate games, etc. Intangibles matter almost as much as tangibles.

Quote:
Everybody wants a playmaker that can run past the defense, make the man miss and catch the elevator throw. But if Hartline and Bess arent NUMBER ONES, than howd they succeed, without a number one to take the pressure off?


Success? The team is 1-3 and struggling to score TDs, particularly in the passing game. Hartline and Bess have played very well, but with a legit #1 we'd be scoring TDs in bunches IMO. It would change the entire offense.

Quote:
How much does Megatron not being in the game change the outcome? Some, definetly, but enormous, gotta have one to succeed? Nah, Burleson would catch his balls(LOL) and do a few things that Calvin wouldnt.


Of course it affects the outcome. Talent trumps all.

Quote:
Im not deminishing the need for great players, just think its a bit overblown through shall we say polarization. Start putting Hartline on Cadillac commercials and suddenly hes alpha one bad ass


Huh? :thinkinghard:


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 Post subject: Re: Tannehill by the numbers
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:03 pm 
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FFM wrote:
First: Define alpha.

Welker lead the league in receptions yards last year (122) and Roddy White was second (100). They were #2 and #8 in yards (1569 and 1296). 6th and 11th in TDs.

That's "alpha production" if I've ever seen it.

Defenses *should* be keying in on them. Those two guys however do benefit from being on teams with a bunch of weapons (although it should be noted both produced without stellar QBs or other weapons at earlier points in their careers).


Second: where did you get your list of 5 highest scoring teams. It's actually:

NE: plays a spread offense. Welker, Lloyd, Gronk, Edelman, etc - too many weapons to cover. I will point out, when the offense was unstoppable: Randy Moss
Houston: Andre Johnson anyone?
ATL: one could argue White AND Jones are both true #1 WRs.
Washington: #1 rush offense, #16 pass defense. 8 rushing TDs, 4 passing, 1 INT, 2 Fumbles. Not exactly a passing powerhouse...
Ravens: Ray Rice is the beast that makes that offense go, but Anquan Boldin is a legit #1 WR.

Third: as we know (Brandon Marshall anyone?) an "alpha receiver" by itself doesn't make your offense, anymore than a dominant RB makes your offense. A great QB is the lone position that makes the biggest difference. IF you have a great QB, well, the rest is icing on the cake. An "alpha receiver" absolutely helps the offense, and a dominant RB likewise helps

Once Miami's "WCO" starts clicking, perhaps we'll find a gem to be the next "Jerry Rice" in it. I know Miami needs *more* weapons to make it work, that Bess + Hartline + Bush/Miller isn't enough to be really successful. We need a pass catching TE and another receiver.

Unfortunately Egnew doesn't look like he has the "Eye of the Tiger". I'm not expecting much, unless the coaches can get through to him. Maybe Clay can be the guy. I was hoping for more. Fasano just isn't athletic enough.

As for the other receiver, well, I'm hopeful it gets addressed somehow this offseason. It was disappointing that Miami didn't get an upgrade this past offseason given ALL the talent that was available in FA and the draft this year. My guess is Philbin didn't want a great receiver dominating Tannehill - he wants Tannehill to get control of the team and to learn to spread the ball around, rather than keep going to his security blanket aka "alpha receiver".

Wait im confused I thought that validated my point as well. Where again did welker play as a number one without a great QB?

Oh and Alpha means First or 1, like Alpha and Omega = first and last, or alpha male means the dominant one.

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