Rebranding Ireland

Finfan33 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:18 pm **Posts:** 9605

hypocritex wrote:

Yet Ireland hired Philbin. We all know Ross wanted a big name guy to sell tickets. Ireland did his due deligence on philbin

THAT Sir is pure and utter BULL SH!T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ross wanted Philbin and Ireland wanted McCoy. Go back and look at the news articles. Go back and look at the post on here begging Ross to override Ireland and hire Philbin.

While you guys are crediting Ireland, would you also like to give him credit for the resurrection of Christ?

JMP wrote:

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If you have GM who is good/great at finding meat and potatos guys.. and needs help from someone on the staff finding playmakers.. Does that mean the GM is a bad one?

Yeah, I'd say it's bad when the guy in charge of the draft can't identify key players. In fact, I'd say it's REALLY bad.

No one is saying Fireland has to hit on every draft pick. But doesn't it tell you something when 5 years into the job we have the same holes and issues today that we did then? All that's changed with this roster is the QB, and we have Philbin/Sherman to thank for that.

Agreed. Every team is going to have holes but they shouldn't have the same holes and lack of depth 5 years into a GM's tenure.

JMP · **Posted:** Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:48 am

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What big names?

Harbaugh, Cowher, Gruden, Fisher. All coaches that Ross reached out to and got turned down.

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We're also in 1st place, JMP. Everyone in the division is 3-3 with 10 games left to play.

You know as well as I do that NFL standings are not based purely on overall record. If it makes you feel good to say we're in first, cool. I prefer to look at the reality that we are in last based on our division and conference records.

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Under your terms? You're right. Because the Tannehill pick was an ORDER from Steve Ross (otherwise he would've picked a lineman, right?), and you ignore that Jonathan Martin has been a better pick than the WR's on that board that we BOTH wanted (Hill, Jeffery, Randle). And Olivier Vernon and Lamar Miller are proving to be steals in the 3rd and 4th round, as well as DT Kheeston Randall in the 7th.

Nope, I don't make up the rules on what is or isn't a playmaker...it's there for all to see.

Tannehill would not have been selected at 8 if Philbin and Sherman weren't on the team, and if you don't believe that you're wrong. I've never ignored Martin - he's done a great job. I still would've selected Hill over him, but that's a moot point now. As for Vernon and Randall...he's a nice role player, which is something Fireland is good at finding. Miller has potential, but he rarely plays because he hasn't earned the trust of the coaches yet. Cunningham, Egnew and Kaddu were completely wasted picks, and so far Matthews has been useless as well.

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Stability? Arrgghh.

Same GM for 5 drafts = stability.

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Jeff Ireland was NEVER given the opportunity to land a franchise QB

Matt Ryan might disagree, but since when does a GM need to be given an opportunity to draft a player? If you want the player, you go get him - period.

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Ireland was finally given the chance to draft a franchise QB in the 2012 Draft, and he did. That's a GOOD THING, JMP.

The good thing is that we have Philbin and Sherman, otherwise we never would have drafted Tannehill at 8.

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But the emotionally invested fibers into Ireland’s failure on this board? They’re deep. And they’re biased. And they’re nonsense.

The emotionally invested fibers into trying to prove Fireland’s success on this board? They’re deep. And they’re biased. And they’re nonsense.

Finfan33 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:18 pm **Posts:** 9605

NYF wrote:

I say this so you understand that I judge Ireland on a daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly basis with objectivity.

So why your drastic shift in opinion? I know you were like us and was railing against Ireland before the draft.

1 draft erases all of you previous doubt regard Ireland?

NYF wrote:

The GM acquires talent. The coach is responsible for developing said talent. Sparano was incapable of developing talent, which is why you saw so many players on this roster quit on him.

It doesn't mean there isn't work to be done, but it warms my heart to see some people on this board ASHAMED of the fact that the Philbin-Ireland era just might be working.

So if the GM brings in players who can only run fast, it is Philbin's responsibility to teach him how to play football?

I call BS!!!!!!!!

You have to draft players and sign FA's with talent so the coach can refine that talent and get the most out of that player. He can't teach a bum to be something he isn't.

NYF wrote:

I wanted the Dolphins to trade a 2nd/3nd round pick for Kyle Orton at QB. I also wanted Ryan Mallett to be taken in the 2011 Draft, which would’ve prohibited us from drafting Tannehill. I laughed at the Matt Moore signing, but he performed better than the other 6 QB’s available last year (VY, Hasselbeck, Kolb, Palmer, etc…) Dolphins’ fans PICKETED for failing to land Matt Flynn for a 3-year/$28-mil+ contract.

Ireland traded for peanuts for Reggie Bush instead of signing Ahmad Bradshaw or DeAngelo Williams for NOTHING.

How badly was Ireland hated on for not signing a big-name WR in Free Agency? Pierre Garcon, Josh Morgan, Laurent Robinson, Mario Manningham for $6-$7-mil year? How would that be looking right now? Would’ve been a waste of money.

I’m not trying to iron out a squeeky-clean resume for Jeff Ireland. But the emotionally invested fibers into Ireland’s failure on this board? They’re deep. And they’re biased. And they’re nonsense.

I also wanted Orton and give Ireland credit for not going through with that trade.

I also give Ireland credit for the Bush trade.

Am I totally vested in Ireland failing? NOPE

I would rather us win than Ireland fail but I refuse to give him credit for EVERYTHING good that is happening with this team right now.

I will say we could hire a worse GM than Ireland if Ireland is fired but I will also say I am EXTREMELY NERVOUS about Ireland being in control of the huge amount of cap space and the largest number of high draft picks that I can remember us having in recent memory.

If Philbin has a say in what is done than I feel better about it but I am nervous about Ireland pulling the "I am boss" card and bringing in players HE wants.

Finfan33 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:18 pm **Posts:** 9605

Degarmo wrote:

You keep saying emotionally invested, like it's some republican talking point on Fox News. Everyone is emotionally invested in their team, that's what sports is for fans . . . which is short for fanatics.

This pro-Ireland wave is on the edge of a two-game winning streak. I find that to be emotionally charged as well. If you look at Ireland's whole body of work, especially in the early rounds, he has not picked up one impact player until Tannehill. Although it was acknowledged that Ireland was definitely on the hot seat this season if he did not pick up a QB early on, I'll be happy to call it his pick, even though the owner was demanding it happen . . . the boss, the guy that keeps Ireland employed.

To say that Mike Sherman didn't play a huge part in Tannehill coming here is being myopic. Also, to say that Philbin not playing a big part in Flynn not coming here is equally myopic. Also, as far as wide receiver, what about guys like Vincent Jackson, or Robert Meacham, or Brandon Lloyd? We went out and got Legadu Naanee and Chad Johnson. They're both off the team currently. No one can possibly think that we wouldn't be better off with one of those guys in the lineup.

I understand building through youth, but we've got a lot of B talent on this team right now. I like the Bush acquisition, but we'll see how he continues this season as his injuries have obviously hampered his performance, visibly, since the Jets game. Behind him, you have a fumbling, injury-prone 2nd year guy (who we traded up to get) who has yet to prove he can stay on the field, be dependable in short-yardage situations, be effective as a pass-catching RB (which I think he very well could), and that he can maintain ball security. Getting Gaffney may pay dividends, but we will have to see after the bye week. Gaffney is a good player and can put up great numbers in this offense, but why didn't someone snatch him up before us? Why didn't NE want him back?

Ireland can be credited for some things, for sure. I'm just saying, personally, I don't feel he's built the core of the team correctly. You don't get the QB in Year 5 of the deal when there's one that's available in Year 1. By the way, the Matt Ryan/Jake Long debate, is over. Ryan won. Atlanta will do fine in the playoffs this season.

Great post Degarmo.

Finfan33 · **Joined:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:18 pm **Posts:** 9605

JMP wrote:

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But the emotionally invested fibers into Ireland’s failure on this board? They’re deep. And they’re biased. And they’re nonsense.

The emotionally invested fibers into trying to prove Fireland’s success on this board? They’re deep. And they’re biased. And they’re nonsense.

I agree with JMP but I think the following is ironic.

Neither side can prove their opinions with hard evidence but both sides think the other is crazy.

CarsonChris · **Joined:** Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:38 am **Posts:** 3020

Here's what I see. Ireland drafted players for the system the team was running at the time of the draft. Under Parcells and Sparano's tenure we drafted the big bruising player that fit their mold for the system. An outdated system that overlooked the one area that teams need the most in today's modern NFL, the QB. Some teams still run this system, the Giants, Niners, and Baltimore. The Giants have the one ingredient to make it work, the QB.

Ireland drafted this year to fit the new system. I say it was a 50-50 proposition on who's responsible for this draft. I'm sure Philbin and his staff had input into this draft just like Sparano had input into his.

The one thing I consider most when looking at Ireland's draft record is this, impact players. Where are they? We don't have anyone opposite of Wake to take it to the QB. We don't have a game changer in the secondary and our secondary has been the weakest part of our defense for the last five years. We haven't drafted an impact wr. A true dominating wide receiver that can beat a double team. We've had more misses in the drafts than successes. The first three rounds the last five years have left us with very little in the way of impact. Not only have the players not met expectation as NFL players but the majority have found their way out of the NFL.

If your the GM of team X in the NFL and you want to build a winning franchise and all players in the NFL are available as FA how many Dolphins players would you target? I say there's only one, Wake. Other than that we are mediocre across the board.

umix10 · **Joined:** Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:45 pm **Posts:** 281

CarsonChris wrote:

If your the GM of team X in the NFL and you want to build a winning franchise and all players in the NFL are available as FA how many Dolphins players would you target? I say there's only one, Wake. Other than that we are mediocre across the board.

IMHO it's not that simple. There's a lot to consider such as cap room, offensive and defensive philosophy, coaching, weather, injuries......but I get what you are trying to say. Even though you need playmakers you still need solid starters and role players. I would certainly take other players on this roster to help build a solid team.......Bess(anyone who knows me knows this one is biased

), Hartline, Starks, Soliai, Bush, Dansby, Smith....maybe a few more.

JMP · **Posted:** Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:25 pm

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There's a lot to consider such as cap room, offensive and defensive philosophy, coaching, weather, injuries

Yep, and Fireland had 5 years to figure out how to work with the structure of the coaching staff and their philosophies, and the signings he made were directly responsible for the cap mess we're in now. To me, three consecutive losing seasons says it all.

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Even though you need playmakers you still need solid starters and role players.

Absolutely, and Fireland does a good job of finding role players. In fact, we have a team full of role players. The problem is, games are won by impact players/playmakers...and we don't have any. That's on the GM.

CarsonChris · **Joined:** Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:38 am **Posts:** 3020

I'll put it this way. Do way have one player on this team that can be considered the best at his position in the NFL besides the punter?

Yes it does take a lot of mediocre players but I think it also takes a sprinkling of elite players to make a champion. I just don't see them on this team other than Wake.

Caleb · **Posted:** Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:06 am

NYF wrote:

This entire thread kills me.

Let me make 2 things clear up front, as I have all along:
1) If Steve Ross wanted Jeff Fisher in January, he shouldn't have let Jeff Ireland stand in the way.
2) If any Dolphins fan thought Ireland should've been thrown out with Parcells and Sparano out the door already, I would've agreed with the logic.

I say this so you understand that I judge Ireland on a daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly basis with objectivity.

JMP wrote:

The big names wanted no part of the Phins' job. And supposedly Fireland preferred McCoy over Philbin.

What big names? Bill Cowher and Jon Gruden aren't coaching anywhere. Jeff Fisher chose the Rams because he wanted complete control in personnel decisions.

JMP wrote:

It's not an upward swing just yet...we're 3-3 and in last place, still struggling to score points on offense and giving up too many big plays on defense. There's a lot of season left to play.

We're also in 1st place, JMP. Everyone in the division is 3-3 with 10 games left to play. We're also seeing Philbin-Ireland working in unison.

JMP wrote:

I haven't seen any evidence of it. Still lacking depth and playmakers.

Under your terms? You're right. Because the Tannehill pick was an ORDER from Steve Ross (otherwise he would've picked a lineman, right?), and you ignore that Jonathan Martin has been a better pick than the WR's on that board that we BOTH wanted (Hill, Jeffery, Randle). And Olivier Vernon and Lamar Miller are proving to be steals in the 3rd and 4th round, as well as DT Kheeston Randall in the 7th.

The talent level would look even better with WR Brandon Marshall and CB Vontae Davis on the roster. Ireland and Philbin chose not to have them. We traded them for a 2, 3, 3, 6 in next year's draft, eating the cap room this year, and opting for a better future.

JMP wrote:

We've had stability at the GM spot...all it's gotten us so far is three consecutive losing seasons for the first time since the 1960's.

Stability? Arrgghh. Jimmy Johnson, Nick Saban, Randy Mueller, and Rick Spielman believed in patching up holes, overpaying FA's, trading away draft picks for short-term benefits, and getting out of dodge if it didn't work. THAT WAS THE PROBLEM.

The Dolphins went from 1-15 in 2007 to 11-5 to 2008, the biggest single-season turnaround in NFL history. This held expectations high to get to that next level in 2009, while having to STILL rebuild the team because it was old. In 2008, our QB was 32-years-old (Pennington) while 6 of our 11 starters on D were 30+ as well.

The Dolphins couldn't get over the hump between 2009-2011 because they didn't have a QB that ranked above 22/32 in QB rating, not because of an ill-constructed team.

Jeff Ireland was NEVER given the opportunity to land a franchise QB unless you want to start a debate about how we should've traded a 2nd and 3rd round picks in the 2011 draft to move up for Christian Ponder, Jake Locker, or Blaine Gabbert. Instead, Ireland took C Mike Pouncey at #15 in the 2011 Draft and QB Ryan Tannehill at #8 in the 2012 Draft. Yeah. What a fucking idiot, right?

Ireland was finally given the chance to draft a franchise QB in the 2012 Draft, and he did. That's a GOOD THING, JMP.

JMP wrote:

The coach's job shouldn't be to help the GM identify playmakers. In fact, if the GM doesn't know how to identify playmakers, he shouldn't be the GM.

The GM acquires talent. The coach is responsible for developing said talent. Sparano was incapable of developing talent, which is why you saw so many players on this roster quit on him.

It doesn't mean there isn't work to be done, but it warms my heart to see some people on this board ASHAMED of the fact that the Philbin-Ireland era just might be working.

Degarmo wrote:

Good coaching and a good QB can make up for poor GM performance, to a point.

Correct, Degarmo. I’ll even take it a step further: the QB and Head Coach ARE the personality of the team. Ireland drafted Tannehill, and has worked very well with Philbin.

I wanted the Dolphins to trade a 2nd/3nd round pick for Kyle Orton at QB. I also wanted Ryan Mallett to be taken in the 2011 Draft, which would’ve prohibited us from drafting Tannehill. I laughed at the Matt Moore signing, but he performed better than the other 6 QB’s available last year (VY, Hasselbeck, Kolb, Palmer, etc…) Dolphins’ fans PICKETED for failing to land Matt Flynn for a 3-year/$28-mil+ contract.

Ireland traded for peanuts for Reggie Bush instead of signing Ahmad Bradshaw or DeAngelo Williams for NOTHING.

How badly was Ireland hated on for not signing a big-name WR in Free Agency? Pierre Garcon, Josh Morgan, Laurent Robinson, Mario Manningham for $6-$7-mil year? How would that be looking right now? Would’ve been a waste of money.

I’m not trying to iron out a squeeky-clean resume for Jeff Ireland. But the emotionally invested fibers into Ireland’s failure on this board? They’re deep. And they’re biased. And they’re nonsense.

Best post Ive ever seen on this subject :beer:

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For once my belief in someone held true(imo). I did waver a bit or worry this preseason and it was starting to grow. but i had to remind myself that it was preseason. God knows hes put up with more crap than most gm's. Let me give ya an example. They didnt sign Naanee with the thought in there head that he would be the next Mark Duper in Miami. They probably figured he'd be 50/50 chance to contribute. So they sign him, not a lot of money but worth a shot. He doesnt work, they cut him and move on. The fans count it up as a failed move of Ireland the idiot, as if Ireland thought he found his A-1 receiver when he signed him. They think him an idiot for signing Naanee thinking hed be great, and that he cant see talent. Now on the other hand, he thinks those fans are idiots as well. " What, you guys thought I was counting on him being Duper or something? Anyways great post.

Rebranding Ireland

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