Butthurt's not my style. I just think you are wrong and can't own up to it.DF316 observations are on the money about Wake's early games yet they are rationalized away with suspect logic and made up definitions of elite . Find an article or analyst commentary that backs up your position. PFF ,outsiders talk all the time about him being elite. Hell they make a statistical argument that suggests he's the best in the league.

I always admit when I'm wrong. The thing is, I'm not wrong in this case.

Wake DID start out slow this season, and he has NOT caused many turnovers in his career. Wake IS the best player on the Dolphins, and he IS a great player. As far as whether he's elite or not, that's an opinion - and as such, it's neither right nor wrong.



Yeah, you'll have to look elsewhere for that. I don't base my opinions on what the "experts" say. Oh, and IMO PFF's ratings are worthless.

I don't understand why you have a problem with me thinking that Wake is great but not elite. That's my opinion, and if yours is different that's cool. Not everyone has to agree with you.

I think Wake is elite. Think you're in the minority on this one. The fact you call yourself right rather then just accepting it as just an opinion is weird... He's definitely in the top 5 pass rushers in the league. A smith. D ware. C wake. V miller. C Matthews. And he's consistent about it. I think if he had an edge rusher opposite him. You would see even more sacks. And yes turn overs.

Pretty sure only Demarcus Ware has had more sacks over the past 3 years. I'd have to say that puts you into Elite status as a passrusher. He's also more solid against the run then most of the guys. He certainly doesn't have the caliber of pass rushers around him that any of those other guys have had over the past couple years.

And he is held ALL the time. We all know that. But, it simply was not called in the first few games as 316 pointed out. More then any other player (think it was last year) statistically speaking. Also statistically speaking applies more pressure to the QB then anyone. And that has been consistent. As for this position switch theory.. Could be a little credence to it. But, I doubt much. That was and is NOT a new position for him.

Fine by me. I usually prefer being in the minority.



Well, we all agree on everything I said - except that I'm using the term 'great' instead of 'elite'. The things I stated are pure facts...the only difference being that I'd put Wake a step below you would. Why does that cause a problem for anyone???

I never thought I'd see the day when LacesOut backed me in an argument with Jmp Now I KNOW today is the beginning of a major change in humanity!!!

Jmp's right about the Fins needing to force more turnovers, but that'll only come with a personnel overhaul, and it doesn't mean Wake is the problem. I shudder to think how nonexistant the pass rush would be without him

On the other hand this team keeps having losing seasons *with* Wake, so maybe if he's traded now while his value is still high...

Nah, not with Ireland in charge of the picks

My guess is because you're complaining about the best player on the team instead of the MANY problem players and areas. But that might be just me

BTW please don't use "butthurt" again, I really don't want this place to be one of *those* sites. Thanks

So calling a player 'great' and labeling him as the best player on the team is complaining???

One of the many problem areas is defensive turnovers...and unfortunately, Wake is a part of that whether any of you want to admit it or not. Doesn't mean he's not great, just means he's not a turnover machine.



Not sure what that means, but OK...

Turnovers are a team philosophy. The closest we got to being an attacking defense was under Nolan. We could use a Ryan-type defensive coordinator.

Who said I had a problem with you? It's not personal. I just called you out on an assertion that I believe has no merit. Is this not the orange forum"where critical debate takes center stage? Sheesh.

No one.



Exactly...but you seem to be more into the "I'm right, you're wrong" style of debate.

Whatever, it's all good. Have a beer and enjoy the holidays!