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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:45 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Because I don’t set the market, JMP. 32 NFL teams do. WR’s and CB’s have progressively been paid more, more, and more over the last 5 years. It’s a simple matter of examining data.


Exactly. And if you're saying those were all bad contracts, then why would you advocate the Dolphins doing the same thing?

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Hartline was missed on 3-4 TD’s of 40+ yards and NEVER targeted in the redzone. 74 catches, 1083 yards, and only 1 TD looks out of place for a reason. Hartline will never be a 10+ TD guy, but 1 TD on the season isn’t his fault either.


LOL You're better than that, NYF. Catches that didn't happen don't count. We can look at any receiver in the league and add 3-4 TDs to his total for various reasons. That's fine in the world of make-believe, but we're in the real world. The numbers are what they are...you can't add or subtract on a whim.

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I don’t care about the #1 WR spot.


Neither does Fireland, and that's why we're in the position we're in, debating whether or not we should overpay a mediocre receiver because we have no one better.

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I care about surrounding Tannehill with a deep, talented supporting cast in his crucuial years between 2013-2015.


So do I, and that's why I want to spend money on real talent instead of mediocrity.

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Your first step? Would be to refuse to pay Brian Hartline more than $4mil/season because any WR could put up 1100 yards? That’s nonsense.


Hartline has never even reached 1100 yards, so that's a moot point. But do I think we can find a cheaper 1000 yard receiver in free agency? Absolutely. We don't need to pay big bucks to a receiver that gets barely 1000 yards and 1 TD...that would be nonsense.

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It’s even more ridiculous to head into FA and the NFL Draft with Bess, Moore, and Clay as Tannehill’s first 3 options while just praying thing will fall perfectly into our lap.


Well, are you serious about rebuilding, or are you happy with the status quo? Myself, I want to see this team reach championship level. We're not going to do that by paying guys like Hartline $6 million a year, we're going to do it by adding better players. I really don't care who we have on the team in February...it's September that counts. The current receiving corps blows...I say tear it down and build it up again. Make the receiver position a strength instead of a joke.

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The inability to surround Hartline (and Bess) with better talent was the reason.


And now you're advocating that we stay the course and continue to go with lesser talent.

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But really.. the Dolphins have positioned themselves to stockpile the skill positions around Tannehill over the nex 3 years, years that will determine his NFL success. QB Tannehill, RB Miller, LT Martin, and C Pouncey will make a combined $6.5mil/season this year. RB Bush, LT Long, and DT Starks will likely walk. It frees up the $$$$ for the Dolphins to re-sign Hartline, add Wallace/Jennings/Bowe, and likely more in the draft.


Except for the fact that in addition to needing at least two receivers, we also need depth or starters at every single position. All that money will go fast, especially if we continue to throw big contracts at lesser players.

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Just understand that you’re dreaming about a 1200 yard street free agent that doesn’t exist.


Nope, what I'm dreaming about is adding playmakers to a position that desperately needs them.


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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:36 pm 
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This offseason will prove that Ireland DOES care about the #1 WR position. Just like he cares about QB.

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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Well I really think White 1 and NYF have articulated the salient points well and have the right of it. It seems to me there are fans that recognize Hartline as a valuable asset and are willing to give him a market contract. Then there are fans who just don't think he is very good so they are unwilling to offer even what the lower end of the market would pay him. Hartline is not elite but there is no way he will be underpaid. NYF's point about the market is often ignored. This what the position pays and no one is going to take less market value if they don't have to.


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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:47 pm 
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hypocritex wrote:
This offseason will prove that Ireland DOES care about the #1 WR position. Just like he cares about QB.


Why did it have to get to EMERGENCY levels of bad for him to address either position?

Because :deadhorse:


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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:22 pm 
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LacesOut wrote:
Well I really think White 1 and NYF have articulated the salient points well and have the right of it. It seems to me there are fans that recognize Hartline as a valuable asset and are willing to give him a market contract. Then there are fans who just don't think he is very good so they are unwilling to offer even what the lower end of the market would pay him. Hartline is not elite but there is no way he will be underpaid. NYF's point about the market is often ignored. This what the position pays and no one is going to take less market value if they don't have to.


I think he's the six million dollar man. I hope he takes an incentive laden deal. This begs the question though. If Hartline was valuable to the team and "He who shall not be named" why did he wait so long to sign him? Now Hartline dictated his value in a contract year. Again the lack of foresight is telling.

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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:47 pm 
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NYF's point about the market is often ignored.


It's not ignored at all. Good players get paid - always have, always will. But the fact is, we don't know the market for a player like Hartline. The contracts NYF pointed to were all for players that scored a lot of TDs. As I said, before they got their $$ Meachem and Garcon had 6 TDs each, and Robinson had 11. Those guys got paid because they made big plays and put points on the board. Hartline had 1 TD in 2012...just like he did in the previous 2 seasons.

So what's the market for a possession receiver that doesn't score TDs? I don't know, but I guess we'll find out. I doubt very much that it's $6 million a year.

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This begs the question though. If Hartline was valuable to the team and "He who shall not be named" why did he wait so long to sign him?


That's a good point. Maybe Hartline isn't such a valuable asset to the team after all? :thinkinghard:


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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:51 pm 
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JMP wrote:

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This begs the question though. If Hartline was valuable to the team and "He who shall not be named" why did he wait so long to sign him?


That's a good point. Maybe Hartline isn't such a valuable asset to the team after all? :thinkinghard:


I read where Philbin says it was nice having two receivers with the receptions they had, Hartline and Bess, but he was concerned with lack of TD productivity. Said we need guys that score. I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:28 am 
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Quote:
we need guys that score


Yep. Look no further than the Super Bowl. For the Ravens, Smith and Boldin combined for 12 TDs. So did Crabtree and Moss on the 49ers. The Dolphins top 3 receivers barely accounted for a fraction of those numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: now we can really debate Hartline's worth
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:59 am 
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I don't think philbin is happy with this set of receivers. Not saying bess and Hartline won't make the roster, but I bet Hartline finds a new home.

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